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Tuesday, 14 June 2011

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A Cassel

Rov,
What about false movements? I have just read your Ahavas Yisrael post and have signed up to the Women's Ahavas Yisrael project to work through this, because false teachers take us in the wrong direction away from Torah. The Chabad movement in my opinion is teaching things that are against the Torah, like that Rebbe Schneerson is Moshiach King of all the World and all Jews must follow and Obey his every Word. They clearly breach Orthodox Halachic Guidelinese etc. This is not what the Torah says and I believe it to be a false cult movement. So what then? How can one listen to the 'good' parts of what is said and not the 'bad'? How can one love groups that are replacing the worship of HaShem with the worship of the Rebbe? How can you support this? I can understand that you can still love someone who is completely off track, does this mean you agree with them and post their viewpoints? Im confused.
Thankyou, Avigail.

YY127

Avigail, I think you misunderstand. The mainstream Chabad movement does not support the idea that the Rebbe was Moshiach. This is a small group within Chabad, and groups who advocate this (meschisists) are never, to my knowledge, approved or funded or supported in any way by the official Chabad movement. Chabad-Lubavitch is not a cult; it is simply a branch of Chassidut (as is Breslov) that has built an amazing infrastructure of outreach throughout the world. I have attended Chabad services and talked to many Chabad rabbis, and none of them have promoted the Rebbe as Moshiach: what they do is mainstream Orthodox Judaism, with a twist of spirituality from Chabad Chassidut.

They have a great reverence for the Rebbe, but it is proper to have great respect for great tzaddikim such as the Rebbe, Rebbe Nachman, as well as the tzaddikim of today!

Also, all branches of Chassidut have a lot in common: emuna, bitachon, joy, etc., so there's nothing wrong with linking to stuff from other branches. While hitbodedut as such is not systematically promoted by Chabad, there are occasional references to it in Chabad literature (including on their website), and the Rebbe himself (for example in some passages in the Gutnick edition Chumash) often mentioned the importance of long periods of personal payer. There are other connections, too: one of the former Chabad Rebbes used to learn Likutei Moharan, for example.

A Cassel

Thanks Rov,
So how do you explain their psak dins that say otherwise such as these ones: http://www.psakdin.net/en/ which are certainly signed by all the leading Chabad Rabbis in Australia at minimum and elsewhere?
You also dont have to dig very far into the "Temple is already built and is standing at 770" to see that is very widespread across Chabad. The Halachic ramifications of these views are horrendous. The Lubavitch Women's association hand out cards in the streets proclaiming "Long Live King Moshiach The Rebbe....etc etc" and other such things openly. Also, they dont study Tanach on their study cycles or in their schools.
They claim to study Rambam and yet in multiple points hold opposite conclusions to him, like the claim of Prophet and that The Rebbe is Moshiach because he was not "killed". They rule against the Mishnah Berurah and other major Codes. So it appears to me that they are outside of the Written and Oral Law on multiple points with their viewpoint, Torah greats have excommunicated them for this and yet they continue to hold major Orthodox positions. So obviously there is a balance between loving your fellow Jew and holding a standard of Torah that is not negotiable. Or doing both without being led down the path of Shabbatzi Zevi and others. So what do you advise to do? What is the proper response to this?

YY127

Avigail -- that was me, YY, not R' Brody, responding to your original post. I don't know if he will be able to respond to you, so I'll do my best. The website you link to is a meshichist website. I read the supposed "psak din," and it is nothing of the sort: it is simply a bunch of quotes (which may or may not be accurate) from the Rebbe about the topic of Moshiach. None of these quotes says he was Moshiach. It may be true that the Rebbe said the messianic age is near and that there is a person alive today that could be the messiah, but these are traditional beliefs that most Jews believe -- we are supposed to expect that Moshiach could come any minute, and that each generation has someone who could be Moshiach if the time is right.

There may be some organizations that hand out meshichist literature, and they may have names making it seem they are mainstream Lubavitcher organizations, but they are not: they are a small but vocal sect.

It is not true that they do not study Tanach. Google "chitas" and you will see their daily study includes Chumash with Rashi.

It is true they have their own halachic rulings and customs which differ somewhat from Yeshivish rulings of today, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with this. There are many different groups within Torah Judaism with slightly different customs and rulings, from the Yekkes to the Yemenites. Chabad's different rulings derive from the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch HaRav, which was (and is) highly respected enough for R' Ganzfried, the (Hungarian) author of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch to use as one of his four sources in making his own rulings for the Kitzur (which is studied by many non-Chassidim today).

I don't think it accurate to say that "Torah greats have excommunicated them" -- in general, Lubavitchers get along fine with the Yeshivish, with the exception of R' Shach. R' Moshe Feinstein, for example, had friendly relations with the Rebbe.

David Eden

B"H

Avigail,

I was deeply saddened to read your posts against Chabad on Rabbi Brody's website. Unfortunately, the internet makes it possible for any person to go onto a beautiful blog such as Rabbi Brody's, and 'very publicly' smear an entire group of tens of thousands of Jews in one quick shot. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of Jews got smeared in one shot by your posts, if you consider all the Jews somehow affiliated around the world with a Chabad Shul. There are enough hate groups and anti-Semites on the web. And in recent times, mainstream media outlets in many countries are attacking Jews and Israel all over the internet like never before. It's not helpful for Jews to attack other Jews.

Please watch the video posted by Rabbi Brody again, and focus on the wonderful, inspirational message about emuna & bitachon (and thanking Hashem for both good and the seemingly bad), which the Lubavitcher Rebbe so eloquently spoke about in the video. Please don't turn Lazer Beams, which is a beacon of Light for all Jews, into your personal forum against tens of thousands of Jews across the world who follow the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. You obviously have an axe to grind against Chabad, but please keep this negativity to yourself. Rabbi Brody often teaches about how important it is for Jews to love all other Jews, even the ones we disagree with, and/or the ones whom are different on the surface. For example, Ashkenazi & Sephardic, or religious and not religious. In reality, we are all one. So let's have Ahavat Yisrael!

On Rabbi Brody's Emuna CD "Pipes of Abundance" he talks about how we have to be careful never to speak Lashon Hara against any other group of Jews, or any rabbi. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the main people (whom you can count on one hand) responsible for reviving Judaism around the world from the ashes of Auschwitz. And he truly loved all Jews. And he taught his shliuchim to also love and accept all Jews.

Your first post against Chabad was extremely harsh, calling ugly names like "cult movement" and "breaching Halacha" and all sorts of other ugly stuff. Chabad is actually very strict about following all of the Halacha, by the way. Someone took the time to politely respond to your posts (you thought it was Rabbi Brody himself but it wasn't), and the intelligent response didn't settle it for you. It only launched you into some sort of "debate" with Rabbi Brody, and you wrote a much more vicious attack on Chabad, and G-d forbid it seems you may have been attacking the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the Torah giants of modern times. Almost all Jewish scholars agree on this. And it doesn't take a Torah scholar to know that he was one of the leaders of an entire generation, for our people. He loved ALL Jews and in one of his famous comments, he compared each Jew in the world to a diamond. You obviously have an axe to grind with Chabad, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but please consider how much it damages Klal Yisrael when Jews attack other Jews, in any form.

When I watched that video the first time, what struck me most was how similar the Rebbe's message was back then to Rabbi Brody's own message today. B"H I feel the Lubavitcher Rebbe would be VERY proud to have Rabbi Brody and Rav Arush spreading the message of Emuna to the current generation.

Furthermore, everyone should know:

The first Rebbe of Chabad, the Alter Rebbe (the Baal HaTanya) defended Rabi Nachman and supported him in the machlokes against Rabi Nachman and said: "Rabi Nachman places himself in nisyonos, he is a great man, a mighty warrior." (Beis Rebbe)

Also:

* When R’ Nachman returned from Eretz Yisroel he went directly to the Baal HaTanya in White Russia (quite a distance out of his way) arriving before Shabbos Chazon (9 Av 5559 -1779) in Liozna. When the Chassidim found out that R’ Nachman had come to town they received him with great honor and came out to greet him dressed in their Shabbos clothing. The Alter Rebbe was overjoyed to welcome R’ Nachman, and they showed each other great closeness and love. They spoke for many hours, and after R’ Nachman declined to speak publicly, the Alter Rebbe delivered a maamar for six hours without stop.


* Once, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe (R’ Yosef Yitzchok), visited Teplik. Upon his arrival, all the Yidden came to greet him and brought kvitlach - and among them was a Breslover Chossid named R’ Elimelech Tepliker. The Rebbe Rayatz told him: “Everyone has seforim in their home, but when traveling, one only brings along the seforim that he uses regularly.” While saying these words, the Rebbe showed him that he had brought along his Likkutei Moharan.

* Also, the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rebbe Rayatz) had a sefer Likutei Halachos on his desk at the time of his passing.

Avigail, even the other Torah giants of our time such as the Baba Sali had the greatest respect and admiration for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And these two great tzadikim used to communicate with each other in ways that you and I cannot even understand.

Let's not focus on whether the Rebbe is the mashiach or not, which you seem preoccupied with. As the person who responded to you on Rabbi Brody's site explained to you, most Chabad rabbis today do not focus on this. They are about making positive ACTIONS happen in the world today, and spreading Torah & Mitzvot to all Jews.

Perhaps the greatest legacy to the Rebbe is all the great work done around the world by his shliuchim. Applaud them for this. Don't knock down other Jews. If you visit Thailand or India or Tazmania or any number of far out places in the world, try getting a Kosher meal without going to a Chabad House, Avigail. :) The numerous families known as Chabad do many wonderful things in Chutz La'aretz and in Eretz Yisroel. They think of themselves as "Jews" first and foremost, and they are there to serve all Jews.

The oldest charity organization in Israel is Colel Chabad, which has been caring for Israel's needy since 1788. They have numerous programs around the world, helping Jewish prisoners, helping Jewish soldiers in the US Armed Forces, and on and on. http://www.Chabad.org is one of the largest places on the whole internet helping Jews to connect to Hashem in every imaginable way. See for yourself. There is no mention there of the Rebbe being the mashiach.. on any part of that huge site.

From Israeli backpackers in their twenties hiking through Thailand and Colombia when they come out of the army, to Satmar Chasidim traveling through China on business, Chabad helps Jews all over the world in any way they can! The murderers who killed the people at the Chabad House in Mumbai didn't go looking for "Chabad" in there.. they went hunting for Jewish blood. And is is often the case, a wide variety of Jews just happened to be visiting inside the Chabad House at the time, and therefore were murdered together as Jews, may their souls all have an aliyah with Hashem.

Breslev and Chabad are both doing a phenomenal job of reaching out to ALL Jews in the world today. They are amongst the most successful at this, which is unfortunately why they both get attacked so much. In spite of all the attacks, both Breslev and Chabad keep growing and growing in almost miraculous ways! B"H

Let's love each other as Jews, and drop all the labels. In the end, we are all simply Jews. B"H And in the zechut of Rabbi Brody, let's keep 'Lazer Beams' happy and positive for all Jews. :)

Kol tuv.

Respectfully,
david

A Cassel

The document has over 250 Chabad Rabbis on it, including the main Chabad Rabbis. One website didnt sign this, has just posted it and there are literally thousands of websites up now covering the Rebbe as Moshiach and Prophet of all the world, so to say this is some small segment of Chabad is no longer a viable defence. I would like to get Rabbi Brody's response to this important matter and would like to know who to contact to get an Official Breslov Position on the matter.
They are certainly saying far more than what you are stating here. They are declaring The Rebbe "Definately the Moshiach" also "Halachically proving" through RAMBAM that he is "the Prophet". This is beyond simple Halachic differences. The Lubavitch Womens organisations are very active to promote these ideas so to say that Lubavitch is not involved is simply not truthful, in Australia at any rate.

A Cassel

You have to click on the links to get to the Psak Dins, it is not on the cover page.
You will find Gutnicks name there along with many other mainstream Chabad Rabbis who have actually excommunicated the so called meschisists. The reason they were excommunicated is because they have gone public before they wanted, not because they disbelieve the views held. Clearly they have declared The Rebbe Moshiach and Prophet of all the World. This is openly discussed in Chabad Centres, houses and Shules.
Also Chumash does not equal Tanach. They do not study the Neviim (Prophets)or the Ketuvim (Writings) is what I meant, simply because it overthrows their doctrine.
Can you advise where to contact Breslov for an official response to the matter? Thankyou, Avigail.

A Cassel

Thankyou David and YY for your opinions which do not address the underlying issue or my question in my view. I can only assume that you are happy to throw Halacha out the window to agree that The Rebbe is Moshiach and the Prophet. I will address the issue with Rabbi Brody in Israel Beezrat HaShem and seek the answers to the questions I have posted above. I do not consider clarifying Halacha on such a vital topic to be 'negative' in my view.
Kol Tuv, Avigail.

Apps 55753818692 197812765 83249db620cb66a0f4404ae2c837f815

A Cassel I have nothing but sheer disdain for your viewpoint.

This is a beautiful example of achdut Yisrael and you are acting like Korach in stirring up machloket.

It was so beautiful that Lazer writes 'Just listening to the Rebbe will make you feel closer to Hashem...'. One can certainly feel this.

Kol hakavod R'Lazer.

bikores.blogspot.com

Yes, it's a shame that this discussion about Chabad is going on here, but since the points have been raised, I'll add my comments.

Let's focus on what the Rebbe himself said. After all, the Rebbe's view is what matters. If you read through what the Rebbe said, particular in the sichos of 5751 through 5752, which he personally edited and wanted publicized, you will see that he himself made it quite clear that he is Moshiach. See the sicha of parshas Shoftim 5751 as an example where he states he is prophet and that we should publicize this as well as his prophecy that Moshiach is coming.

For over a year, the Rebbe actively encouraged the singing of "Yechi Adoneinu ... Melech Ha'Moshiach .." to him, hundreds of times.

So anyone who bashes Lubavitcher Chassidim for thinking the Rebbe is Moshiach, is bashing the Rebbe for saying so.

The majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach though most of them don't necessarily advertise this fact. And even some of those who believe it, squirm when it's publicized and might even go so far as to denounce those who make their squirm. Whether you think this belief is misguided or not, it in no way goes against halacha. Chabad shluchim around the world serve as mashgichim for the big kashrus companies. If their religiosity was in doubt, they would not be hired as mashgichim.

When the Holtzbergs were murdered in Bombay, may G-d avenge their blood, the frum world mourned as well. The frum world didn't say - hey, they were heretics anyway for believing the Rebbe is Moshiach. And note, two of their guests who were murdered were in their home because they were mashgichim and they had no qualms staying with the Holtzbergs because their religious observance was 100%.

It's only those "followers of Korach" who, like the original Korach stirred up animosity against Moshe, stir up machlokes and cast aspersions on Lubavitch and (if they dare to do so openly) on the Rebbe. Remember what happened to Korach, and beware.

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